And so it goes for the Blue Jays

Remember when the Blue Jays went into Fenway Park 9 days ago?

They had a 3 1/2 game lead on the Red Sox and were riding a 4 game winning streak. They were about to embark on a 9 game road trip to show they were for real.

They were about to make a statement.

Oh, they made a statement alright. 

Nine days later they are the third place Blue Jays and they lost all nine games of the road trip.

They ran up an 8-3 lead today with Roy Halladay on the mound.

A 5 run 8th inning later it was in extra innings.

Then they had a 10-8 lead in the 11th... and someone named Nolan Reimold, a prospect even people who follow Orioles prospects forgot about, hit a walk off homer.

All of a sudden Cito Gaston's Manager of the Year award doesn't look as certain.

Either way, here's hoping their slide lasts just a few more games as the Red Sox come to town!

That's ONE!

The drought is over for Big Papi.

He now has more home runs this season than Stephen Hawking.

Hopefully that will mean he will be relaxed and quit thinking the weight of all New England is on his shoulders.

I stand by my previous Papi statements.

Not to take away from the euphoria of Papi's blast to centerfield, but I was convinced that Cito Gaston was going to leave poor Brett Cecil in that 5th inning until he gave up a homer to all 9 Red Sox hitters!

But I won't take away from the significance of these two games against the Blue Jays. 

The Jays came in to Fenway on a 4 game winning streak and holding onto first place. They were shut down by two terrific starting pitching performances by Wakefield and Penny and the Sox bats got the hits they needed.

Now the Sox have a 7-0 record against the Yankees and Blue Jays and are doing it with pitching!

Show no mercy. Go for the sweep.

And maybe have Papi double his home run total.

HALL OF FAME OR NOT: MANAGER EDITION

Last Spring, I broke down which current players belong in the Hall of Fame or not.

It got me some attention and this interview heard in Toledo on On Sports with JP and Kevin.

And rest assured, I am working on an update of that entry for 2008.

But for some reason I didn't think of which managers should get Cooperstown consideration.

And today's division title for the Angels made me think about Mike Scioscia and his ever growing Cooperstown resume.

Here are the parameters for consideration that the staff at Sully Baseball has come up with.

1) The manager is currently managing now.
2) They have managed a World Series winner.

Sorry Bruce Bochy, Ron Gardenhire and Dusty Baker. You need to win the big Kahuna in order to get in.

So lets look at the candidates.


BOBBY COX
Case For:
14 straight division titles with 5 pennants and the 1995 World Series title. Throw in the 1985 AL East title with the Toronto Blue Jays. His Braves teams won year in and year out despite a constantly changing cast of characters. He is also as respected a manager as there is in the game.

Case Against:
Only won one World Series. Had the better team but lost in the World Series or playoffs in 1985, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1998, 2002, 2003 and 2004. Was outmanaged often and his use of the bullpen was suspect to say the least. Went 1-6 in post season series in the 2000s. How much of the success was because of him or because of Leo Mazzone’s handling of the pitching staff and the rise of Glavine and Smoltz and the signing of Maddux?

Verdict: HALL OF FAMER RIGHT NOW
Winning only one World Series didn’t keep Earl Weaver or Leo Durocher out of the Hall of Fame. Al Lopez didn’t even win one! And the consistency of managing a team into the playoffs with different faces and different clubhouse leaders for nearly a decade and a half is more than enough.





TERRY FRANCONA
Case For:
Two World Series titles for a franchise that was starving for one. His calm and never panicking approach allowed the Red Sox to come back from a 3-0 deficit to the Yankees in the 2004 ALCS and a 3-1 deficit to Cleveland in the 2007 ALCS. First manager to win his first 8 World Series games. Made the playoffs in 2005 and looks ready to have them back in 2008.

Case Against:
Was he in the right place at the right time? What manager couldn’t win with a team front loaded with superstars? OK, besides Grady Little. The huge payroll and All Stars at almost every position makes filling out the line up card kind of easy. He didn’t exactly display Hall of Fame stuff as a manager in Philadelphia. Besides, shouldn’t Theo Epstein be getting the credit for this team?

Verdict: NOT A HALL OF FAMER YET
It’s early but if he stays in Boston for 5 more years and keeps them in the playoffs for most of those years and wins another World Series title, it might be enough.




CITO GASTON
Case For:
He was the first manager to win back to back World Series in the Free Agent era. His teams made the playoffs 4 of his first 5 seasons. His 1992 team lost Dave Winfield, David Cone, David Wells, Tom Henke, Candy Maldonado, Manny Lee and Kelly Gruber in the off season and yet they won the 1993 World Series. Was the first African American to manage a World Series winner. The 2008 Blue Jays have played over .600 ball since he took over the team.

Case Against:
Followed up the back to back World Series teams with 4 straight losing seasons. Was fired and couldn’t get a job for 11 seasons. GM Pat Gillick replenished the lost stars after the 1992 seasons with more stars, so his teams were always stocked with talent.

Verdict: NOT A HALL OF FAMER YET. PROBABLY TOO LATE.
His first five seasons were spectacular and we forget now what a huge task it was to repeat as World Series champs. If he turns the Blue Jays around and they win a third World Series under his leadership, it might be a career worth examining. But not yet.



OZZIE GUILLEN
Case For:
Managed the White Sox to their first World Series title since 1917. And he managed them with their most visible superstar, Frank Thomas, hurt for most of the year. The 2005 World Series roster was devoid of a legit Hall of Fame candidate or a single marquee player… and yet they matched the 1999 Yankees with a 11-1 post season record. Has a White Sox team most picked to finish near the bottom in 2008 in first place in mid September. Has a hands on and aggressive managing style, including hit and running, stealing and unorthodox bullpen management, that makes it clear he is not a “fill out the line up card and take a nap” manager.

Case Against:
Like Billy Martin, can grate on the players and the management and constantly seems on the verge of getting fired. His 2006 squad was superior in talent to the Twins and Tigers and yet finished third (despite 90 wins) and the 2007 White Sox were a disaster. The team’s success could just as easily be credited to GM Kenny Williams.

Verdict: NOT A HALL OF FAMER YET
One great season and playoff run doesn’t make a Hall of Famer. Jack McKeon and the late Dick Howser would be in if that were the case. Ozzie needs to pile up some Division Titles and another pennant and not get himself fired. Longevity will go a long way. Earl Weaver was firey too and he only won one World Series… but he stuck around and piled up the October appearances. Take note Ozzie.


TONY LARUSSA
Case For:
Along with Sparky Anderson is the one of two managers to win the World Series as a manager in both leagues. Led the Oakland A’s to 3 straight World Series appearances. Including his time managing the White Sox, he has had 12 post season appearances, 11 division titles, 5 pennants and the 1989 and 2006 World Championship. Is considered to be a superior intellect in the dugout and consistently a winner from 1983 to present.

Case Against:
Has there been a manager who has more benefited from the steroid era than LaRussa? He won the pennants in the late 80s and 1990 on the juiced up strength of McGwire and Canseco and turned a blind eye as McGwire chased down Maris in 1998. Now there are whispers of Albert Pujols and positive tests for Rick Ankiel. Are we to believe after all the books written about his intelligence that he didn’t know?

Verdict: HALL OF FAMER RIGHT NOW
I don’t like LaRussa and I made that clear. But the total tonnage of what we don’t know about the steroid era is not enough to wipe out a remarkable managerial career.




JIM LEYLAND
Case For:
Took 3 teams to the playoffs, including the 1997 World Champion Florida Marlins. If it wasn’t for Francisco Cabrera’s single he would have lead three different teams to the World Series. Took a losing Pirates franchise and led them to 3 straight NLCS appearances. Took a losing Marlins franchise and led them to the World Series title. Took an irrelevant Tigers team, just 3 years removed from a 119 loss season and brought them to the World Series in his first year. A tough and no nonsense manager who actually got Barry Bonds and Gary Sheffield to march to his beat.

Case Against:
Couldn’t win the pennant in Pittsburgh and when the stars left the team collapsed. Managed the 1998 Marlins, stripped of their World Series participants and saw them finish 54-108. His one year in Colorado was a disaster. The 2006 Tigers looked rusty and unprepared in their World Series loss to the Cardinals. Was given a $100 million plus roster for the 2008 Tigers and they stumbled badly out of the gate and have been irrelevant in a year they were supposed to be a World Series contender.

Verdict: HALL OF FAMER RIGHT NOW
If Francisco Cabrera had popped up, there wouldn’t even be a discussion here. Either way, his ability to revive moribund franchises and the respect he commands is enough for me.




LOU PINIELLA
Case For:
Pulled off one of the great World Series upsets in history when the Reds swept the A’s in 1990. Turned the Mariners, the most laughable franchise in baseball, into playoff contenders. After the Mariners lost Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey Jr and Alex Rodriguez, they responded with a 116-46 record. With the Cubs has now managed three different teams into the post season. Has a firey unmistakable brand of managing he undoubtedly picked up from his former manager Billy Martin.

Case Against:
Couldn’t get the Yankees into the playoffs his three seasons as manager… The 1988 AL East was very winnable. Despite having Randy Johnson, Alex Rodriguez, Ken Griffey Jr, Edgar Martinez and a host of other stars, he couldn’t win a pennant in Seattle. His 116 win team got beat badly in the 2001 ALCS by the Yankees. His three years in Tampa Bay were disastrous. His managerial decisions may have cost the Cubs the 2007 Division Series.

Verdict: NOT A HALL OF FAMER YET… BUT HE’S ALMOST THERE
He’s on the bubble right now. Some might argue he is in Jim Leyland’s position of winning only one World Series but turning franchises around. I would argue that he needs to return to the World Series as a manager. If he wins a pennant for the Cubs, he’s in… no questions asked.



MIKE SCIOSCIA
Case For:
Won the 2002 World Series, toppling the heavily favored Yankees in the first round. With 2008 already wrapped up, he has led the Angels to division titles in 4 of the last 5 seasons. Has a mixture of veterans and rookies on his team and an ever changing roster, yet like Bobby Cox the team keeps winning. The turn over in ownership and in the front office during his time shows this isn’t a manager simply benefiting from a GM’s power.

Case Against:
The 2002 World Series was lost by the Giants as much as it was won by the Angels. While he has no problem beating the Yankees in the post season (the did it in 2005 as well) they get clobbered by teams with Sox in their name. (The Angels were swept by the Red Sox in 2004 and 2007 and lost the 2005 ALCS in 5 games to the White Sox.)

Verdict: NOT A HALL OF FAMER YET… BUT PROBABLY WILL BE
It’s early but no manager in baseball is putting together a Hall of Fame resume faster than Scioscia. He has the ring and is piling up the Division Titles. He needs at least another pennant and he also needs to keep the Angels as annual pennant contenders into the next decade.



JOE TORRE
Case For:
12 straight post season appearances for the Yankees including 6 pennants and 4 World Series titles. The 1996 World Series victory was as unlikely a win in World Series history. He rattled off 4 straight pennants despite strong challenges from Oakland and Seattle. And after Steinbrenner made 19 managerial moves in 21 seasons, he gave the Yankees stability over 12 seasons. Restored the dignity and championship expectations of the Yankees with his cool and calming managerial style and developed new Yankee legends along the way. He also managed the 1982 NL West champion Braves and looks poised to win a division title in Los Angeles this year. Also was a borderline Hall of Fame player.

Case Against:
How much was his Yankees success because of him or how much was it because he walked into a good situation with a team developed by Buck Showalter and Gene Michael? His record as a Mets, Braves and Cardinals manager was not exactly stellar. (One post season appearance prior to the Yankees and it was a 3 game sweep.) Not a great strategy manager and prone to making some terrible decisions that possibly cost him the playoffs in 2002 and the World Series in 2003. Only one manager has ever blown a 3-0 series lead and that was Torre. His managing of games 5 and 6 possibly cost the Yankees the pennant. How hard is it to manage the Yankees with all that money?

Verdict: HALL OF FAMER RIGHT NOW
You think it is easy? Ask Joe Girardi! The ability to stay calm in stormy waters is his greatest asset and it led directly to the 1996 and 2000 World Championship and post season appearances in 2005 and 2007 despite terrible starts. No man in baseball is more respected and no record speaks more clearly that they deserve a spot in Cooperstown.




So there you have it.
Tony LaRussa, Bobby Cox, Jim Leyland and Joe Torre will be in Cooperstown.
Lou Piniella is a Chicago pennant away and Mike Scioscia is well on his way.

Then again if Piniella wins the World Series for the Cubs he might be canonized by the Pope

Hey Blue Jays, love the retro jerseys but...

YOU ARE WEARING THE ROAD JERSEYS AT HOME!!!!

Seriously, isn't there anyone at the Blue Jays front office who remembers that they wore white unis at home and powder blue on the road?

Isn't there anyone on the Blue Jays staff who follows the Blue Jays?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for the old hats and old uniforms.
I never liked the T hat and the black uniforms (they aren't the Black Jays.)

And retro is in with the Blue Jays... wearing the old hats, having Cito Gaston manage...
Why not bring John Olerud back?

But please get the uniform color right.
Granted it was during a Yankee game so it must have been confusing to figure out which team was the visitor.

But make the effort... PLEASE!
Look up the old tapes! You don't even need expressed written permission from the Toronto Blue Jays.

You ARE the Toronto Blue Jays!
White unis at home for the glory days!

Looks like I was right about Cito

Well it looks like your pal Sully was spot on when saying the Blue Jays should give Cito Gaston another crack at it.

All he did was win back to back World Series under his lead…

Now time will tell if we were RIGHT about this decision, but how could Cito do worse than John Gibbons?

Thanks for the Link KP…
Glad you dug my Benitez post.

Blue Jay fans... why not bring back Cito?

Let's talk Blue Jays baseball today.

First of all, I tip my hat to the Blue Jays organization for dumping Armando Benitez in less than a month.

After he let up two home runs in 2/3 of an inning for a crushing loss against Baltimore on June 6, the Jays basically said "OK, everything we read was true. I guess the fan bases of the Orioles, Mets and Giants weren't 100% wrong about this guy."

It took the Giants 3 years to dump him. The Jays didn't need that long.

The funny thing is I wanted to put a picture of him in a Blue Jays uniform on the blog... and I couldn't find one on the web.

But their correct handling of Benitez doesn't mask the fact that the Blue Jays are blowing a big opportunity this year. What has everyone been saying about the Jays over the last few years?

"They'd be a contender if they were in a different division." Basically saying the Red Sox/Yankees cold war has prevented more October games being played north of the border.

Well look at this year. The Yankees have been hovering around the .500 mark, and while a lot of people including yours truly think they will go on a run, there is a possibility with the thin rotation and question marks in the bullpen and no Torre on the bench that the Yankees won't.

So an AL East team that is usually an after thought has a shot to be a playoff contender. And you'd think that team would be Toronto instead of the post Exorcism Rays.

The Blue Jays have the pitching to win but they can't seem to get out of their own way. They lost series recently to Seattle (inexcusable) and the Yankees and Orioles, whom they should be trying to move past.


Which brings us to the manager John Gibbons.
First of all, why is he still the manager?

Once you pick fights with your own players and don't turn those fights into wins, shouldn't you be canned?
Or caned?

But worse than battling with Dave Bush, Shea Hillenbrand, Ted Lilly and I'm guessing Frank Thomas... his team could be blowing a chance to take advantage of a crack in the AL East armor.

Yeah they've had injuries, but so has every team. And any team that has a rotation of Halladay, Marcum, McGowan, Burnett and Litsch should be winning more than 1 out of every 2 games.

How many teams say "Hey we HAVE enough starting pitching?"

The Blue Jays need a spark. This is Gibbons fifth season as manager. Maybe give the keys to someone else.

And why not have that person be Cito Gaston?
Seriously... bring back the manager of the greatest glory era of Toronto baseball!

Heck when Cito first managed the team, he took over an incredibly talented but underachieving Jays team that was 12-24. Jimy (sic) Williams wasn't getting it done.

They went 77-49 the rest of the way to edge the Orioles for the AL East. He lost the AL East on the last day of the 1990 season to Boston and then rattled off 3 straight division titles.

Then he became an interesting answer to a trivia question:
Who was the first manager of back to back World Champions in the Free Agency era?

Remember the Yankees won back to back in 1977 and 1978, but Bob Lemon had replaced Billy Martin.

The 1980s had only a handful of back to back division winners and repeating as champs seemed like a thing of the past.

And free agency took its toll on the 1992 World Champs. A bunch of players flew South of the border after the World Series parade. And not exactly insignificant players either.
Jimmy Key
Kelly Gruber
Tom Henke
Manny Lee
Candy Maldonado
Dave Winfield
David Wells
David Cone

Sure they replaced some with big names (Dave Stewart and Paul Molitor signed on and Tony Fernandez and Rickey Henderson were brought in as mid season trades) but they had to fill in other holes from within.

Todd Stottlemyre, Pat Hentgen, Ed Sprague and Duane Ward had to play bigger roles.

And Jack Morris was hurt and useless in 1993.

The result? A World Series title courtesy of Joe Carter.
Now he never had another winning season and the Jays took a while to recover after the strike and he was fired during the 1997 season.

And he hasn't managed since.
To this day only two managers have won back to back World Series titles in the Free Agency era...
Joe Torre and Cito Gaston.

One is going to the Hall of Fame and the other can't get a job.
He evidently has been up for a couple, but why isn't his name the first on people's lips?

All the managers he beat in the post season got jobs!
Tony LaRussa, Gene Lamont... even Jim Fregosi!

Don't tell me he's been gone from the game too long.
Jim Leyland left the game bitterly after the 1998 season and didn't come back until leading the Tigers to the 2006 World Series.

Don't tell me he's too old.
I think Jack McKeon calls Methuselah "Son."

Cito has as many World Series rings as those guys combined.

Someone like Terry Collins, who actually had player revolts on two teams, has been mentioned more times than Cito for jobs.

And I am not going to open the racial can of worms.
Don Baylor, who won exactly gotch as a manager, found more work.
And Dusty Baker, the man behind the biggest collapse of a potential World Series clincher in history as the Giants manager followed that up the next year with the 2003 Cubs collapse.

I say bring Cito back now!
Why not?
Maybe he's hungry! (He hasn't worked in 10 seasons, I hope he saved his money.)


What do YOU say, Blue Jays fans? The members of Blue Jays Nation!

Superfan... do you want Cito back?

Hey everyone at American Jays Fan... Is there something I don't know about him that is preventing him from getting another job?

Hey Matt and KP at Jays Nest, do you think Gibbons should be gone?

Do the folks at The Mockingbird think this year is a unique opportunity?

Let's hear from you Jays fans!
I don't want to cause an international incident